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	<title>Comments on: Creeping forwards</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/</link>
	<description>Building, racing, crashing and setting fire to various kit cars...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:40:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Tim Hoverd</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Hoverd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-111</guid>
		<description>The term &quot;magic number&quot; comes from these people: www.optimumg.com. They say that experience is that the roll stiffness distribution (the MN) should be able 5% higher than the F/R weight distribution. Experience is that that isn&#039;t far out as a start.

Oddly enough, building ARBs for people isn&#039;t part of my life&#039;s plan. Well, unless you paid me enough anyway and that&#039;d make it the world&#039;s most expensive ARB.

Come on though, it&#039;s easy to make. I know you ought to use spring steel but cooking stuff seems to work fine!

Tim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The term &#8220;magic number&#8221; comes from these people: <a href="http://www.optimumg.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.optimumg.com</a>. They say that experience is that the roll stiffness distribution (the MN) should be able 5% higher than the F/R weight distribution. Experience is that that isn&#8217;t far out as a start.</p>
<p>Oddly enough, building ARBs for people isn&#8217;t part of my life&#8217;s plan. Well, unless you paid me enough anyway and that&#8217;d make it the world&#8217;s most expensive ARB.</p>
<p>Come on though, it&#8217;s easy to make. I know you ought to use spring steel but cooking stuff seems to work fine!</p>
<p>Tim</p>
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		<title>By: NeilEverett</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>NeilEverett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-110</guid>
		<description>:-) re the &#039;magic number&#039;!

Your plan sounds good. The front end of my Mojo is slightly different to yours (outboard shocks &amp; sierra uprights, unlike later Mojos/Riots/Spectres) but I think the geometry in terms of roll centres etc is likely to be pretty similar.

Do you take ARB commissions? ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/ttcp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  re the &#8216;magic number&#8217;!</p>
<p>Your plan sounds good. The front end of my Mojo is slightly different to yours (outboard shocks &amp; sierra uprights, unlike later Mojos/Riots/Spectres) but I think the geometry in terms of roll centres etc is likely to be pretty similar.</p>
<p>Do you take ARB commissions? <img src='http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/ttcp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hoverd</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Hoverd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-109</guid>
		<description>If the Mojo suspension is anything like the Riot/Spectre one then my calculations show that it really needs an ARB at the front. In particular, as you say, to keep the roll stiffness distribution sane. (Or, the &quot;magic number&quot; as it&#039;s called in certain race circles. :) )

My approach is going to be pretty much as I did for the Fury: a bar running in aluminium blocks bolted to the chassis, two actuating arms welded to the ends of the bar (previously I&#039;ve just bent a solid bar but this time I shall have separate arms on the ends of a solid, or perhaps tubular if I can get the right material, bar), and actuating rods made up of  aluminium shafts with 5/16&quot; rod ends the ends. The rod ends will connect to one of a series of holes drilled in the arms and a tab welded to the bottom wishbone. The issue is always to get the actuating shaft long enough so that the bar doesn&#039;t bind up at the extremes of travel. It&#039;s usually pretty easy to do for the front ARB as there isn&#039;t a drive shaft in the way.

T</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the Mojo suspension is anything like the Riot/Spectre one then my calculations show that it really needs an ARB at the front. In particular, as you say, to keep the roll stiffness distribution sane. (Or, the &#8220;magic number&#8221; as it&#8217;s called in certain race circles. <img src='http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/ttcp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
<p>My approach is going to be pretty much as I did for the Fury: a bar running in aluminium blocks bolted to the chassis, two actuating arms welded to the ends of the bar (previously I&#8217;ve just bent a solid bar but this time I shall have separate arms on the ends of a solid, or perhaps tubular if I can get the right material, bar), and actuating rods made up of  aluminium shafts with 5/16&#8243; rod ends the ends. The rod ends will connect to one of a series of holes drilled in the arms and a tab welded to the bottom wishbone. The issue is always to get the actuating shaft long enough so that the bar doesn&#8217;t bind up at the extremes of travel. It&#8217;s usually pretty easy to do for the front ARB as there isn&#8217;t a drive shaft in the way.</p>
<p>T</p>
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		<title>By: NeilEverett</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator>NeilEverett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-108</guid>
		<description>Look forward to seeing your front anti roll bar solution - it&#039;s something I&#039;ve been toying with for quite a while on the Mojo. Ideally the front springs could do with being a bit softer, but then my roll stiffness distribution would be very rear biased. A front ARB would help balance it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look forward to seeing your front anti roll bar solution &#8211; it&#8217;s something I&#8217;ve been toying with for quite a while on the Mojo. Ideally the front springs could do with being a bit softer, but then my roll stiffness distribution would be very rear biased. A front ARB would help balance it out.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Hoverd</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Hoverd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-107</guid>
		<description>&#124; I suppose you could make a return and 
&#124; rivet it instead to the top of the bottom chassis rail.

Exactly. In fact the plan is to put the cr[ou]tch strap bush in that same plate. Admittedly the top of the side bit is 25mm above the top of the centre bit, but that&#039;ll be all covered in foam anyway.

As to cutting the tub up, there&#039;s something about that that I just don&#039;t like. I may convince myself that I&#039;m being daft though; I ordered the roll cage steel today so I&#039;ll have to come to some conclusion soon. I think much of my problem is that I&#039;m going to have to modify the tub anyway to stretch it backwards and I&#039;m wary about ending up with a jigsaw of bits of GRP that don&#039;t fit together even as well as one needs in a race car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>| I suppose you could make a return and<br />
| rivet it instead to the top of the bottom chassis rail.</p>
<p>Exactly. In fact the plan is to put the cr[ou]tch strap bush in that same plate. Admittedly the top of the side bit is 25mm above the top of the centre bit, but that&#8217;ll be all covered in foam anyway.</p>
<p>As to cutting the tub up, there&#8217;s something about that that I just don&#8217;t like. I may convince myself that I&#8217;m being daft though; I ordered the roll cage steel today so I&#8217;ll have to come to some conclusion soon. I think much of my problem is that I&#8217;m going to have to modify the tub anyway to stretch it backwards and I&#8217;m wary about ending up with a jigsaw of bits of GRP that don&#8217;t fit together even as well as one needs in a race car.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DB</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator>DB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-106</guid>
		<description>What about the attachment of the bottom edge of the transmission tunnel side panel though?  If it&#039;s a flat sheet you can&#039;t rivet it to the outside of the bottom chassis rail, otherwise you&#039;ll undo all the hard work to increase the width of the seating area.  I suppose you could make a return and rivet it instead to the top of the bottom chassis rail.

Your plan with the slots in the rear deck was the same conclusion I reached on how to do it on my (entirely imaginary) Spectre.  I hadn&#039;t appreciated the bolt-on stays were to allow you to remove the centre tub.  I think I&#039;d be tempted to cut away the section of the centre tub which goes around the cage (the bit which the seatbelt bolts pass through) and make a flange with a Bighead fastener in it for the centre tub to attach to in order to hold them together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the attachment of the bottom edge of the transmission tunnel side panel though?  If it&#8217;s a flat sheet you can&#8217;t rivet it to the outside of the bottom chassis rail, otherwise you&#8217;ll undo all the hard work to increase the width of the seating area.  I suppose you could make a return and rivet it instead to the top of the bottom chassis rail.</p>
<p>Your plan with the slots in the rear deck was the same conclusion I reached on how to do it on my (entirely imaginary) Spectre.  I hadn&#8217;t appreciated the bolt-on stays were to allow you to remove the centre tub.  I think I&#8217;d be tempted to cut away the section of the centre tub which goes around the cage (the bit which the seatbelt bolts pass through) and make a flange with a Bighead fastener in it for the centre tub to attach to in order to hold them together.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Hoverd</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Hoverd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-105</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the panelling is changed at all, apart from a slightly larger flange on the rear of the side (of the &quot;tunnel&quot;) panel.

The plan is to cut slots in the rear deck so it&#039;ll fit over the rear stays; it&#039;ll probably have to slide in from the rear so that the slots are parallel with the car&#039;s axis. In fact, I&#039;ll probably make a virtue out of it and made an ally panel under the slot to support the front of the rear bodywork. The swinging legs will mean that the central tub can be taken off as a single piece as it ideally fits around the roll cage, like the Fury one does. The alternative is, of course, to just make the tub in two parts anyway and that is still an option which might actually be quite a good idea when I come to look at having to lengthen the bodywork anyway. Be nice to have the option though. I did wonder about using pins and a spring clip, but I&#039;m not sure I&#039;d trust it, and the relevant diagram in the BB has a proper bolt there.  As you say, having to have a spannner to check the oil level would be a real PITA...

T</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the panelling is changed at all, apart from a slightly larger flange on the rear of the side (of the &#8220;tunnel&#8221;) panel.</p>
<p>The plan is to cut slots in the rear deck so it&#8217;ll fit over the rear stays; it&#8217;ll probably have to slide in from the rear so that the slots are parallel with the car&#8217;s axis. In fact, I&#8217;ll probably make a virtue out of it and made an ally panel under the slot to support the front of the rear bodywork. The swinging legs will mean that the central tub can be taken off as a single piece as it ideally fits around the roll cage, like the Fury one does. The alternative is, of course, to just make the tub in two parts anyway and that is still an option which might actually be quite a good idea when I come to look at having to lengthen the bodywork anyway. Be nice to have the option though. I did wonder about using pins and a spring clip, but I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;d trust it, and the relevant diagram in the BB has a proper bolt there.  As you say, having to have a spannner to check the oil level would be a real PITA&#8230;</p>
<p>T</p>
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		<title>By: DB</title>
		<link>http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/creeping-forwards/comment-page-1/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>DB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/?p=750#comment-104</guid>
		<description>Won&#039;t the repositioned tunnel sides make panelling it a bit of a PITA?  Admittedly, not perhaps as much of a PITA (literally) as leaving them in their original positions, but it looks as though the side panels will have to be fairly funkily shaped in order to meet up with the various tubes.

Does the swinging rear stays plan mean that you&#039;ll have to undo 2 bolts every time you want to poke at the engine, or does when you say clevis does this mean you&#039;ll be using clevis pins and a spring clip/R-clip?  Having to wield spanners just to check the oil levels sounds like rather a faff...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Won&#8217;t the repositioned tunnel sides make panelling it a bit of a PITA?  Admittedly, not perhaps as much of a PITA (literally) as leaving them in their original positions, but it looks as though the side panels will have to be fairly funkily shaped in order to meet up with the various tubes.</p>
<p>Does the swinging rear stays plan mean that you&#8217;ll have to undo 2 bolts every time you want to poke at the engine, or does when you say clevis does this mean you&#8217;ll be using clevis pins and a spring clip/R-clip?  Having to wield spanners just to check the oil levels sounds like rather a faff&#8230;</p>
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